E-mail conversation with O'Fallon JYMS

The following e-mails were sent to me by a friend Jeff R. He trained in the jungyae system at the same time as many of us. Jeff got curious about some things and wanted to find out what was going on, so he wrote a letter. The following is the e-mail conversation Jeff had with the O'Fallon school of JYMS.

Like a lot of the things we post it is kind of long, but well worth the time to read. For those that are curious, after the last response from O'Fallon Jeff decided to give up responding... he was getting to frustrated dealing with their (as he put it) "cult mind".

The last e-mail from them was actually kind of nice, even though it did back track and try to cover up some very negative (and false) things that were said earlier. Many of the ex-instructors have stated that they are willing to talk about anything that happened to them, it is sad that those in O'Fallon have turned such a blind eye to what is going on...

Hopefully they are far enough removed from everything that they will never get truly burned by won kim they way many of us have...

For easy reading Jeff R. words are in BLUE while the O'Fallon responses are in BLACK... also please be aware that their are two people who are responding from O'Fallon.

____

Hello,

Ok, let me get right to the point. I used to train in Jungyae Moosul in Washington. This was several years ago. I left JYMS for personal reasons and moved shortly their after. I still managed to stay in touch with several of the Instructors (and in later cases school owners) and I will say I was happy when I found that they left JYMS to pursue their own goals.

Truthfully I don't currently know anyone training in the O'Fallon location, but I did know and train with Brad Shipp who opened the O'Fallon school originally. Is he still their or has he left also? Basically I am just curious what you current relationship is with JYMS and Won Kuk Kim?

I realize that these questions may be intrusive and I understand if you decide not to answer or just tell me to take a flying leap. Itruthfully mean no disrespect, but I was just wondering about the current state of things and about some of the people I used to train with.

Thank you for your time,
Jeff R.


Jeff,I am not sure if you received a receipt to your inquiry or not.Please give me a call and I will answer all your questions: (636)294-9008.

Best regards,Joe Meister
Bu SaJoseph Meister
Director/Secretary/Bu Sa
Jungyae Moosul O'Fallon Academy
2689 Highway KO'Fallon, MO 63366
Cell# 314 422 6688
Office 636 379 9291
E-mail ofallon@jungyae.com
www.jungyae.com


Hi Joe,

Thanks for getting back to me. I have some answers I was looking for. I guess Brad Shipp is now in New York? Is that correct?

Anyway, I am still curious about your situation their and if you are still with Won Kim?

... I can't really call you, I am "out of state" from you... possibly, if you are their on Saturdays, but e-mail is the best option for me.

Again thanks for taking the time to answer, I really appreciate it.
Jeff R.


Jeff, Do Ju Nim, Mr. Kim, Won Kuk is our Grand Master. He hasdirectly sponsored our school here in O'Fallon and visits every 2months. He does all of our tests and gives a seminar every 2 monthsas well. His level of interest is very high with us due to the levelof martial arts discipline and respect we present, while he is here,to other Masters and to the other schools

Brad Shipp is our Chief Instructor, Dae Sa Ryoung Nim and he has aschool in New York City. He visits about every 6-9 months and comesto both train and teach with us. Since his school is fairly new heonly has junior belts and so he comes here to 'spar' with some seniorbelts. Patrick Pruitt Bu Sa Ryoung is our most senior student atSenior Dan Bo.

Keep in touch and let me know when you can stop by.
Very respectfully,
JoeM...


Hi Joe,

I realize that you guys are still in Jungyae and are going to say positive things about it, but I wonder...

What do you mean that Won Kuk Kim directly sponsored your academy their? I know that Brad Shipp opened that school and was the "financial backing" for it. At least when it opened, I am not sure about now.

I agree that you seem to have a true martial arts spirit their. I have not had good relations with Won Kuk Kim and I had to go threw other means to track down some of the other Instructors / people who were with Jungyae back when I was training. Won Kuk Kim basically refused to talk to me once I left, not very professional, nor is it keeping with the family values that he "says" he believes in.

If you don't mind me asking... How do you feel about all the schools that have left Won Kuk Kim? Are you still on good terms with them and / or have any contact with them? I saw recently that the Woodinville and Kirkland schools have been removed from the Jungyae website also.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, I am swamped with work lately. Thank you also for the invite to stop by... I might actually be out that way next year, how far are you from St. Louis? Might be interesting to stop by and see how things are run considering you are kind of far from the source.

Jeff R.


Jeff,

In Asian cultures, leaving the family meant you had decided againstthe family. Italians have a similar tradition. Your decision toleave may have had bad influences. But regardless of yourcircumstances, you made the decision, not Grand Master Kim. Yourfamily values are not his, they are yours. If you decided to joinJungyae, then you decided to live by his rules, not yours. When youleft, you broke Jungyae rules per the Jungyae philosophy: Unity.

Regardless of whether you believe in all that he teaches, his tenet ofUnity is not questioned. He gives much and asks for little in returnfrom those other instructors and they continue to pay for theirleaving.

The ones that remain are loyal to his trust. But because of pastdiscretions, we now have to, as Instructors, sign a contract. I forone, am saddened by this. Upon reading the student handbook, I foundour Unity and have kept our school in one direction: Do Ju Nim'sdirection. That is our bottom line; if you are wanting for knowledgeand someone or somebody has that knowledge, then you have to pay forit; either by monetary means, by time spent, or by some other means.

If you are still looking for information, please stop by. Westernersagree with Asians that face to face is good, rather than communicatingvia other means. We are in O'Fallon, just 25 minutes West of the StLouis Airport. 636 379 9291

I apologize for being so to the point. The offer to stop by stillstands.

Very respectfully,

Joe Meister Bu Sa



Hi Joe,

First thanks for being "to the point" as it were. I respect that. I really didn't want to get into this, but since you have been to the pointwith me, I shall do the same with you. I trained at the Mukilteo Academy for quite some time, training 4 to 5 days a week. I saw and worked with Won Kim much more than you have, since you only see him for a short time every couple of months. I have continued to talk to some of those Instructors who are no longer with Jungyae, mostly through e-mail witch they seem to have no problem with, but I will get to that in a second. Let me talk a bout a few other things from your last e-mail first...

"In Asian cultures, leaving the family meant you had decided againstthe family. Italians have a similar tradition. Your decision toleave may have had bad influences. But regardless of yourcircumstances, you made the decision, not Grand Master Kim. Yourfamily values are not his, they are yours. If you decided to joinJungyae, then you decided to live by his rules, not yours. When youleft, you broke Jungyae rules per the Jungyae philosophy: Unity."

-- Well you seemed to have made some assumptions about my character here. Unity is an interesting concept, let me tell you about my finial reason behind leaving Jungyae (their are others, but I will leave those for another time). I was working for Won Kim and was supposed to be paid for said work. This was agreed on by both of use before I began. The money that he owed me soon stacked up, which I really had no problem with since I enjoyed helping out, but I was constantly promised that payment would be made. It was not and this went on for several months. If I asked about it, I was told that was disrespectful and I should just trust him to pay (too bad that did not work the same for my tuition). Then I was late turning in my testing fees. I got called into the office and was basically reamed for turning the money in late. At this point he still owed me a considerable sum... in the beginning I offered to do the work in exchange for tuition, he told me that was not proper and that he would simply pay for the work. I paid tuition on time, I paid my testing fees, yet he did not pay me, nor did he make any attempt to pay me and then yelled at me for being late? Is that your definition of Unity? That is just unprofessional no matter what culture you are from. Even you said: ""That is our bottom line; if you are wanting for knowledge and someone or somebody has that knowledge, then you have to pay for it; either by monetary means, by time spent, or by some other means."

"Regardless of whether you believe in all that he teaches, his tenet of Unity is not questioned. "

-- I believe in the tenet of Unity and yes I question his since of it. I have studied martial arts for much of my life. The concept of Unitygoes both ways, we help and take care of each other. Not hey you need to pay me on time but I can screw you over as much as I feel like because I am the master. I have done work for other Instructors that I have trained under in the past, but Won Kim is the first to not even thank me for it.

"He gives much and asks for little in return from those other instructors and they continue to pay for their leaving."

Have you ever talked to those Instructors that left? Obviously you have not. What do you think they "continue to pay" for? Now I don't know about the last 2 schools to leave (Woodinville and Kirkland), but the others all are doing much better than they were with Won Kim. Won Kim actually asked a lot of them while they were in Jungyae and gave nothing in return. You talked about the Handbook... the first version of that was plagiarized from another master. The second one on CD was written and is copywrite by Carl Doup, who was the Chief Instructor of the Marysville Academy, which is now called Shi Doa Kung Fu. So that is not Won Kuk Kim's direction, but rather a direction he took from others and pretends to follow. I got this information from Mr. Doup and if you wish to verify it, he said to be free to contact him through e-mail at admin@kungfunorthwest.com or call him directly at 360.653.2820. Why don't you try asking him what he got for all that work. I think you will be surprised.

Also why is it that everyone except Won Kim had no problem maintaining friendships out side of the school? The concept of family is that you are always family, no matter the decisions you make. I still occasionally talk to an Instructor that I trained under when I was like 18 (I am 39 now) and we have maintained a bond through the martial arts not in spite of it.

Won Kim just takes from people. Do you guys still give him all your testing fees (minus the 10% for being 1st degree (or below)Instructors)? Did you know that the Washington schools had changed this agreement a while ago and all the schools in Washington were only paying him a small percentage of testing fees instead of the majority? This was not something he was happy about, he did not want to give freely for all to benefit, he wanted to take it all for himself to benefit. Still don't believe me?

Try going to http://www.bullshido.net , go into their forums section and do a search for Jungyae. You will see a list of topics that will pop up. Their are articles written by some of the Instructors who left Jungyae. Does it not seem strange to you that ALL of the schools in Washington state have left him? Not just one or two but 5 schools (6 if you count the one that closed because it got NO support from the Federation (read Won Kim). Their is more happening here that what I think you are aware of.

I want to thank you again for offering to have me come by. I wish I could, but again I don't live in Missouri, so I am afraid at this time it is just not possible. Also, I am not doing this to attack you, but you seem to not understand what has really been going on. I offer you to follow up and check / verify what I am telling you. Get in touch with Mr. Doup and ask him. Check out those articles and see for yourself. If you want I will even ask the other Instructors if I can pass along their contact information and you can talk to them too, I am pretty sure they would have no issue with that. Let me know if you are interested.

Ok, this was more than I meant to get into, again I hope you take no offense, like you I am just getting to the point. If you are going to call someone on something I hope you are open minded enough to at least listen to what they have to say in counter point. Thanks for your time, I hope we can keep an open dialog.

Jeff R.


Jeff,

I do not need to speak to those instructors. I have accepted the factthat martial artists are human beings and are not perfect, myselfespecially. I accept the level of interaction I have with Do Ju Nim,Shipp Dae Sa Ryeong Nim and my instructors here. I can not apologizefor your situation, nor will I discuss it with you. That is betweenyou and Do Ju Nim to discuss.

I will tell you that others have contacted us and I have read most ofthe data regarding Jungyae on various web sites and from variousinstructors. I have not contacted and will not contact them regardingany of these points.

I do not understand your goal with contacting us, knowing what youknow, but that is your decision and I respect that. The SeniorInstructor in O'Fallon was against my contacting you for all of theabove reasons; other than that, you can tell those others that we arewell. We are working with Dae Jo Boo Nim (Grand Master Bok Man Kim),Do Ju Nim, and Shipp Dae Sa Ryeong Nim with no problems and learning aton of martial arts.

Please accept my apologies if I do not respond to you anymore. Pleaselet the others know that they can contact me and I will give them theexact same story as I gave you. Best of luck with your martial arts.

Very respectfully,

Joe Meister Bu Sa


Joe,

As I said in my first e-mail, my goal in contacting you was to find out what happened to Brad Shipp and to see what was going on in O'Fallon. I was very honest and up front about that (what I was looking for) Now I admit that I could have searched for the information about Brad Shipp in a different way, I was curious so I contacted you. If you had answered simply: We are still with Jungyae and very happy, thank you for asking, also you may contact Brad Shipp at the New York Academy. Well... that would have been the end of it... I probably would have just tried to contact Brad Shipp at that point. But then you started to try and sell me the virtues of Won Kim.... and I called you on it.

Now you want to act like a child with their fingers in their ears yelling blah blah blah... I am sorry you are so closed to the truth. It is your life and your choose what you do, but if you go through it with your eyes closed you are going to get hurt. If you are going to try and sell your "Master" as such a saint you had better be sure he is that pure to stand up to the scrutiny.

I am sorry to be so blunt, but you are not thinking clearly. Do you really believe that 5 schools left Won Kim with out cause? If you are going to be in business with this man do you really believe that his past business practices are not relevant? Their is a history of this man screwing people over and it goes a lot deeper than you think. What, you don't believe me? -- I know you think I am just some quack on the internet, but then why are you so afraid to verify the information? It may burst your bubble, but at least then you can make decisions based on fact and not on what you had been fed by Won Kim.

Faith in your master is a good thing and admirable. Blind faith is not. That is how you get taken advantage of. If you were strong enough to stand up for yourself and actually check into some things I think you would find your story is much the same as those other guys who left. They all believed in Won Kim until they worked closely with him (MUCH CLOSER THAN YOU) and found out the truth. He cares about himself and how much money he can get from those he has duped. Period.

Ok, this is gone on enough. I had no desire to get into this pissing contest with someone who is so brainwashed that they argue with conjecture when they are presented with facts. Remember something Joe -- faith is for religion, so if you are going to worship Won Kim you better keep your eyes closed, because once you step out of that and plant you feet in life the facts are going to rip you apart. While their are others better to talk to you about this, their lives having already been down your road, I will still leave the door open - so if you ever wake up feel free to write me -- till then good bye.

Jeff R.


The following message followed shortly after Joe's from Allen of O'Fallon Jungyae Moosul:

Dear Jeff R.

I have been monitoring your e-mails but was waiting to reply. Joe is notan instructor here in Missouri he is only a cadet and was not givenpermission to contact you. He does not have all the information you wererequesting and probably never will. I myself trained in the mukilteoacademy for three years before I came here, I trained here for severalmore years before I took the school over, unfortunately it was understress, but I have managed to make it work for me. I have trained inseveral styles other then Jungyae and through my years Won Kuk Kim has theknowledge I desire in my training. Believe it or not I know of theproblems with money and the other gyms but because of them several changeshave been made.

To get to my point - no system or style is perfect and there is alwaysdisagreements but that shouldn't destroy good will. As with the schools inWashington I got a lot of help from them my first year here and Iappreciate there help but they did choose to leave the federation. Severalof them have skills outside of jungyae and there schools I hope aresuccessful however some did not. In my opinion some of them used Won Kim'sname to first establish there schools, going on his name to build theirs,and then when they saw problems decided to exit stage left instead ofbuilding a stronger federation. I myself have watched as the system hasprogressed when they had all the schools and have been involved in thesystems decisions recently and have seen progress.

Whatever you and Won Kim worked out or didn't work out is for you andunless that was to directly or indirectly affect my school should not bediscussed as well as this schools business. How I have worked up paymentsfor Won Kim is between me and him as long as I feel I am getting a fair deal that should be all that matters.

As for Joe he does not speak for my gym and has overstepped his line indealing with this issue the way he has. You seem to already have all theinformation you need and probably are as informed as I am. If you want todiscuss martial arts in general and not just Won Kim or how he runs hisfederation then just address your e-mails directly here. Thank you.

Respectfully

Allen


Allen,

First I can't believe I am wasting so much time with you guys, but sometimes once something gets started you have to see it through to the end.

I must say you have developed quit the conspiracy theory their. I mean 5 schools all used Won Kim's name to build their schools just to leave him - lol Well lets break this one down now shall we? Fact: The first 3 schools to leave Won Kim were all struggling while in Jungyae. Once they left, ALL of them went to (from what I understand) great lengths to distance them selves from him, changing their school's name, removing any reference to Won Kim as their teacher and rebuilding their curriculums -- after which ALL three schools finally started to prosper and grow. Don't believe me, well like I told Joe, Carl Doup has offered to verify any information, you can e-mail him at admin@kungfunorthwest.com or call him at: 360-653-2820. Now from the last 2 school to leave one of them was the Kirkland school... where Mike Davis was the Chief Instructor. Mike Davis who was Won Kim's right hand man for all those years ( and from my understanding of Jungyae history, the very beginning of Jungyae in Washington) -- so I guess he was just fooling Won Kim until the time was right to leave? Do you really believe that 5 Instructors were just using Won Kim and that he is just some patron saint who got abused? OMG -- Look at it from another angle -- you go to court, one man says" " No I did not kick the dog." 5 other witnesses say: "Yes, he kicked the dog." -- as a judge who do you believe?

For your information, those school worked their ASSES off for Won Kim. I thought what I did for him was pretty generous, even for what I tried to charge him (which for your information was about 90% below what I charge anyone else), but what they did was amazing. They stuck with him through hardships which you obviously have no idea about. To say they "exited stage left" when they saw problems shows that you really have no clue about what was going on. Man, it is so sad that I know more about what has gone on in your organization better than you do, and I am not a School owner, Instructor, or even an assistant -- just some student who got suckered.

Why does Joe need your permission to contact me? I was asking for what should be public information.... are you still affiliated with Won Kim and is their somewhere I can contact Brad Shipp (which at this point I admit I have reconsidered my desire to do so). Are you afraid to have your assistant talk to others outside of Jungyae? ... and also, why is that Joe will never have the "full story", what are you so desperate to hide?

If you are building your school on Won Kim than anything that affects his reputation effects you. If you are going to tell everybody what a great guy he is, then he better be a great guy. You may only live in your Jungyae World, but the rest of the world will not follow your faith, they will look at the facts. Also, just because I feel like throwing it in, you realize that the whole "Do Ju Nim" thing was made up later and that he is only like 7th or 8th degree under his father right? Ignoring it, by-the-way, does not make it go away, it only makes you blind and stupid.

So tell me something Allen, has some of those great improvements in martial arts included going from a 10 belt system to an 18 belt system (and I heard that Won Kim was trying to push a 24 belt system on his Instructors)? How does that improve the martial arts he teaches? Hell I remember him making changes when their was a 10 belt system and now he is going to improve and / or finish an 18 or 24 belt system - lol. Lets face it, those changes are to make more money (read: more testing fees in his pocket), which if you are just a business that is not a bad thing, but Won Kim is found of saying that he is building the BEST martial arts system - how is watered down techniques to fill 18 or even 24 belts a better martial system.

God this is so much drama I was not looking for. Obviously I struck a cord in you guys for you to act this way... Once you educate yourself maybe we can have a better conversation. Why don't you try that and we shall see. Until then you are just living in some make believe world. I think I told Joe this too... If you take just a little time to find out, you might be surprised how close your story is to those other 5 Instructors... they all believed and gave their lives for him. When they found the truth they took a step into a much bigger and better world. True the choices are yours, but if you are going to make a decision is it not better to be well informed? It is in Won Kim's best interest to keep you blind, other wise he might lose some more money - and that is where his true passions lie.

Knowledge is power and right now you don't have much of that. I don't really expect to hear back from you, I actually hope I do - I just doubt it, so I will wish you well and advise you to watch and protect your back.

Jeff R.

Jeff R Your E-Mail was to me not Joe. Joe routes several accounts through hisserver and then sends them here. In all my years I contact a person andtell them somebody is trying to get hold of them I have never just giventhat information away first, so I was waiting to hear from Bradd in NewYork before contacting you but we have both been very busy. Joe wasreplying to one of my e-mails without asking me, in my mind that would belike opening my mail which was not his business, that is why he oversteppedhis station not because I don't want him to contact you. Joe will neverhave the whole story because I don't even have it all, it sounds like youeven know at least as much which I said also.

I agree those schools worked there asses off which I said last time butyou misinterpreted what I wrote. Right now my school is growing and doingalright some of that success was due to information from the instructorsthat left. I have more of a clue then you think, I have read the bullshidoand know some from the internal workings. We are not changing to a 24 beltsystem and the testing fees have changed considerably, all of which wasbecause the other instructors pushed that point. The Federation also hasstarted to finish the curriculum and been working on the teaching aspect ofit to help the instructor teach.

As for Drama all I put in was that my school business and financialworkings did not need to be discussed. As for Won Kim losing money if Ileft doesn't make much sense since he doesn't make very much when he comeshere. You defiantly worked Joe up though. Won Kim is my instructor andwill be for many years to come but he has never hindrance me from doingthings or looking to improve my skills. I was allowed to put insubprograms and clubs to help the school grow as well as many other things.All in all I might have been allowed to do more then the schools before me,why I am not sure but I think those little things helping my school and theinstructors leaving like they did opened up more doors for everybodyincluding those that stayed with Won Kim.

As for selling the virtues I for sure will not. I do not follow withoutreason and still want Won Kim's Knowledge so if he is willing to share thatand gives me a say when I need it things will continue forward. I willrepeat what I said earlier Several of the instructors that left had a lotof potential and I wish them the best and truly hope they become successfulin thier endeavors. I now am running a school and I am promoting Jungyaeon Won Kim's name, that will build good-will, as for how he chooses to runhis federation directly effects me yes but I have been in other style's andhave seen much worse when it comes to greed then you might think. Forexample there is a federation I know of that if you are an instructor youhave to work for the Grand Master and are not allowed to own your ownschool, but your pay reflects poorly if the school struggles and if it isdoing great you get a pay cap so you would not benefit as much, also alltesting fees for that organization goes directly to the Federation not theinstructor. That is not all, even though it appears to remain in thefederation the school's under them lose instructors all the time (I wouldleave under that structure). They remain schools for that federation onlybecause the instructors never truly own them and when they leave theypromote somebody into that position. Training for that system takes anaverage of only 2 years to earn black belt with 10 belts in the system. Wetake on average 3 and a half years with 18 that is about the same amount oftests but with an extra year and a half at least before black belt. Oneschool I was told (in a different federation) would pass students whofailed thier test for another 20 dollars. Martial Arts is up to theindividual and knowledge is power so we seek to attain this knowledge.

And as for why I was so blunt well, your way of addressing Joe in yoursecond or third e-mail LOL and OMG as well as calling someone a child inmy mind is a poor way to have a conversation. If you believe you arewasting your time then you should not have kept up the contact. As foryour contact with me you seem to have handled it the same = lol Well letsbreak this one down now shall we? = Is snide like I am a child and have noclue. =Once you educate yourself maybe we can have a better conversation. Why don't you try that and we shall see.Until then you are just living in some make believe world! = If you wish to discuss thinks on an much more respectfull levelyou know how to contact me.

As for Brad I haven't got hold of him this week so still have no word butyou can always use the Internet like you did to contact here if you stillwish.

Have a great day.

Allen I.

This Ends the dialog.

Bullshido posts

The following is kind of long but well worth the time it takes to read.

The following posts originally appeared on Bullshido.net on 02-08-03. For the entire posts please go to Bullshido.net and do a search for Jungyae Moosul or you can reference these links:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1953&highlight=jungyae

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2216&highlight=jungyae

reprinted here are excerpts from those posts of relevant information minus the comments and replies.


Hello All,
I have been reading articles here for a while, but I have never posted. I don’t get to stop in very often, but when I did this time I found this topic. Why is that important you ask? Well because I am an ex-Jungyae Moosul Instructor. After reading the posts here I thought it was important for people to know about Jungyae and to add to / clarify some of the things being said here. I am not here to bash per say and what I have to talk about are simply my opinions and recollections of events as I saw them happen – YMMV.

First if you really want to understand please go here and read the whole message thread.

http://anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/361.html

This link has been posted before, but it is written very well (better than I could ) I know the Instructor who wrote this and I invite him to repost it here if he is so inclined. Yes, he is also en ex-JYMS Instructor and no I am not him.

First - yes, Jungyae Moosul is basically Tae Kwon Do Plus. Even though they claim to teach all styles (and have theories for them) they have no real application for anything except a Hard Tae Kwon Do style. All the forms, hand and foot techniques are based on Tae Kwon Do. There are weapons and self-defense techniques thrown in at each belt level. Some are really good while others were simply made up by the “master” (or made up by someone else and then the “master” would take credit) - at the time I left their was an attempt to put in Wing Chun style techniques at the Black Belt level, this was not well executed. Instead of actually learning a style of Wing Chun the “master” preceded to simply make up and modify his own “Wing Chun style” of techniques. Also, we were told not to call it Wing Chun, because: “This is Jungyae Moosul and all things must come from Jungyae Moosul.”

Any Kung-Fu style of techniques that were seen would most likely have come from the Marysville Academy (at the time, Marysville is one of the schools that has left Jungyae) or from the Woodinville Academy. The Instructors of those academies have (or had) a deeper interest and understanding of the soft styles and would often supplement their training (or demo teams) with those aspects. If some one asked the “master” would always say he taught them everything and it all comes from Jungyae Moosul, when in fact the “master” is simply a Tae Kwon Do “master”.

Yes the requirements change all the time. This is one thing the Instructors (those still in the system and those that have left) always hated. The “master” wanted to change the system into something easier to teach (at least that is what we were told, it mostly seems like a money thing). So the system was changed from a 10-belt system to an 18-belt system. I did not really have a problem with this when it first happened (thinking it was for the better and not “just” for the money), but the “master” switched with out even finishing the requirements for the new belt system. For example at the Blue belt level, students were supposed to learn Kama and a Kama form. There was no Kama form and we were told: “Just teach them anything they won’t know.” Or “Don’t worry, just show them something else.” At least until they went to testing and the “master” would then yell at the students telling them they are doing it wrong. I personally lost student after I taught something just the way the “master” had showed it to me and then have the “master” tell them at testing that they were doing it all wrong. Say what!?! What would be worse is then the “master” would re-teach us how to do it and it would be exactly what they did at testing –or something the Instructors had never even seen before. Requirements were switched, updated and changed almost every week. You were lucky if you got all the changes or even understood them. I know for a fact this is still happening.

As far as who is selfish and greedy – well let’s look. The “master” kept all the testing fees (minus a very small percentage given to the Instructors, who actually did all the work). He had a Mercedes, a minivan (with all the TV and VCR extras) a new house and would ware $100 shirts all the time; he also supported his wife (who does not have a job), and 2 children. He would often tell the Instructors that they must suffer for the system and not to expect anything, this is the best way. Several of the Instructors lived in their schools; one Instructor did not even own a car! The schools were expected to pay for their own advertising, even though with 7 schools in the WA area, testing would bring in sometimes more than $10,000 every 2 months! Where was that money? I guess the Mercedes needed a check-up. It is also interesting to note that the “master’s” school was really no bigger than the other schools and had the same average number of students. The Instructors also had no health care, no benefits of any kind, but often did extra work for no pay for the glorious Federation (this too is still on going).

Well that is all I have time for right now. So far this is just the basic stuff and yes there is more. A lot of the more stuff is more personal and I want to think it through before posting. Let me know if there are questions and I will do what I can to answer. Just to be fair, please realize that I have been out of Jungyae Moosul for over 6 months now and any information I have on the system would now be second hand.

________________________________________________________

I too am a former Jungyae instructor and still have several ties on the inside. One of the things that bothered me most about Junyae Moosul or more specifically, the "master" was his lack of humility and his extreme need to controll and be everything. The claim of Jungyae is that it is a "complete" martial art, when in fact it is simply TKD+. This would not be so bad except that when the instructors realized it and wanted to learn new things and new styles to help make the "complete' claims true, they were told that to train with anyone else was "treason" and "un-loyal" to the Jungyae family. For years we were told not to read books, study videos and most importantly never cross the line and learn from anyone else. To top this off, he wasn't teaching us anything. He expected us to just learn everything on our own. Unfortunately for him, many of his instructors did learn from other masters and soon started to realize that the "master" who claimed to teach a "complete" art was doing anything but. No true soft style, no mimicry styles (animal, drunken, etc.., no internal arts, no qigong (he said practicing these things made people crazy), no practical combat (many instructors did teach combat application but the "master" rarely if ever did).

This is the main reason I left:
For someone to not teach me and then think he has any right to tell me I can't learn from someone else is fooling himself completely. No man, and I mean no man has the God given right to tell me what I can and can not learn.

Since my departure, i have spoken with a couple of people still on the inside and have learned that he has seen the light. He has decided to now let instructors learn from whoever they wan't... WITH CERTAIN CONDITIONS
Please keep in mind this is only what I have been told by others.
1. Instructors cannot tell there students they are learning from someone else.
2. Instructors cannot teach anything they have learned.
3. Instructors cannot demonstrate what they have learned to students.
4. If a student happens to see an instructor doing any of these new things and asks about them, the instructor must tell them it was learned from the "master" and is a part of the "complete" jungyae moosul system

What a crock!
I'm sure I will think of more and post it later.

_____________________________________________________________


Just A quick thought, just to show how backwards the thinking of the “master” is (and yes I constantly put that in quotes because it pains me to actually refer to him as such)

There are all these schools that are rushing to put grappling in and make some claim to the fact that they have it. Jungyae actually had Jujitsu techniques before it became the big buzz. The “master” took it out of the curriculum (the big belt switch thing)saying that people don’t really like that sort of thing and it looks bad (?) - I tried to convince him at one time to put it back; he just said what he would always say if you questioned curriculum:

“You don’t understand the big picture, I know, I see everything and I know what works. You don’t know.”

Well, looking back, I guess I knew enough to get out.

___________________________________________________


Speaking of “You don’t understand the big picture, I know, I see everything and I know what works. You don’t know.”...

At on point the "master" wanted to put on a Knife self-defense/fighting seminar. He put it into the hands of an instructor who had taken the time to study the Philipino methods. When it was time for the seminar to start the "master" decided that rather than let the instructor with the knife experience run it, he would run it himself. The reason? "That Philipino stuff is no good and doesn't work. I grew up in Hong Kong and I know what really works."

When all was said and done the seminar turned out to be a total joke to be mocked. As an instructor that had to stand there and support the "master" it pained me to watch every student with previous martial arts experience roll their eyes every time something new was taught.

While I understand that in a knife fight, you most likely will get cut, anyone who thought this seminar was for real would probably die.

_______________________________________________________

Un_Jungyae above (hello my fellow x-jyms brother ) ) made a point I want to expand on (about the lack of humility, which I think is a very nice way of putting it). Everyone should realize that this “master” is about as two faced as they come. He would always go on about the right way to do things and that we had to treat everyone the same and ALWAYS follow the rules. That was until they affected him or until women were involved. I loose count when I look at the number of different ways that he lied and deceived even behind his own Instructors. He will tell you what you want to here in order to indebt yourself to him and then he will use you until every drop of your life force is gone. Once he is done with you he will simply drop you from his life and move on. I have often heard him say that you just forget about anybody who leaves; “Just forget them, cut them off.”

Now anybody who is out there and thinking, no he is not that way, or if you are thinking; no he has changed, then I point you to another of his favorite sayings: “You cannot change who you are.” He has done BAD things to people and he will again, simply because he believes it is his right. He is the “master” and he knows everything (in his own mind). This man (and I use that term loosely) has a ‘god complex’ that is just crazy. The Instructors would even make fun of this behind his back, but he is quite serious about him being the best at everything. I have been there when he told an Instructor (who has a degree in computer graphics, has worked for a fortune 500 advertising firm and worked as a freelance artist for his whole life) that he knows nothing about designing and if he (the “master”) had the time he could do so much better. – Yeah right.

I have seen a lot about Oom Yung Doe from KC Elbow and other places. The best thing I can say about Jungyae Moosul is… well its not as bad as OYD, but the similarities that are there are scary. If you train at one of the “satellite” schools (which would now just be Kirkland and Woodinville, and the school in Missouri, though truthfully I am not familiar with them at all) consider yourself lucky. The Instructors there are doing their best to deliver the best martial arts they can in a hostile environment. Stay as far from the “master” as you can. Unfortunately you will still have to see him at testing time, but if you are in the system that cannot be avoided (unless you are a private student, then ask your Instructor to please just teach you). Survival Trips and seminars should be avoided, save money for something worthwhile, most of these are thrown together last minute with the attitude that you won’t know any better.

That’s all I can do tonight. I had to burn some energy off from working out and doing taxes ) Good night.

____________________________________________________


The Following Post was an update made on 3-29-04. The original thread can be seen here:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11047&highlight=jungyae

Hello all. I have not posted in a long time, but I do browse often. Basically I am taking some time to update everyone on some things that have happened with my old school Jungyae Moosul. For those unfamiliar with the whole story please checkout the following links:


• This was one of the original threads posted by an ex-instructor of Jungyae Moosul (not me BTW). It is well written and it details a lot of the goings on in the system. Make sure you read “My Story” parts 1 to 4.:



http://www.anyboard.net/rec/sports/.../posts/359.html



• From the Bullshido forums you can find a continuation of the story here:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/sho...=jungyae+moosul



and here:



http://www.bullshido.net/forums/sho...=jungyae+moosul


The basic update is as follows:


A few weeks ago the there were 3 schools still left in Washington State. Mukilteo (where the so called founder is), Kirkland and Woodinville. At this time Kirkland and Woodinville have left the “federation” (meaning the so called “master”) and are now running independently. I have not spoken with them much, but I hope to soon. I did receive a call from the Kirkland Instructor telling me that they has left and he was hoping to stay in touch with me now that they had left.

For those in the Woodinville and Kirkland schools let me say congratulations. The Instructors at those schools are top notch and really care about their students – IMHO. My current understanding is that they are reevaluating the curriculum and moving back towards what Jungyae Moosul was at its conception –a hard fighting style.

To anyone who still trains at the Mukilteo school. I ask you to really look at your so called “master” and wonder what he is really giving you. Realize that to him, you are no more than a money sign and he will tap you for all he can. Ask him why all these schools left and see if you get an honest answer… most likely he will just brush you off or even say that we did not leave but he got rid of us. Also, I believe that the Mukilteo's lease is up in May - has it been renewed or another location been aquired? If not what happens with those contracts he made you sign? Something to think about. Is this truly someone you want to learn from?

If there are any questions please let me know, I will try and stop by to answer as time permits.

My Story part 4 (from a former Jungyae instructor) (of 4)

Originally posted on the Dragons Dungeon on 11-03-02
http://anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/361.html



My Story part 4

While changing the belt system did seems to increase retention (ever so slightly) the overall feel of JYMS changed drastically. In the past each level of rank was a true accomplishment, now it was so easy and didn’t seem to carry much weight. It used to be that once people got to the black belt level (if at all) they knew what they had done was not something that not just anyone could do. With the new system we began to see black belts with little confidence because they had never truly been tested. Those who had gone through the rigors became demoralized because people who had done far less where now catching and surpassing them in rank with much less effort. JYMS took a major blow to its moral and it was felt through out the entire organization.

As time passed with little noticeable difference on the business end of things, many of the school owners (and Master Kim) began to grow restless and impatient. We began to look at new ways of growing. As a result the climate became one of mostly business. The sessions with Master Kim that where once solely for training became long, arduous meetings. JYMS made a clear evolution from the “Martial Arts Business” to the “Business of Martial Arts”. What was once a blind loyalty and acceptance of what Master Kim taught became differences in philosophy of the martial arts and business. Perhaps this is because his “teaching” began to focus solely on business.

One of the biggest blows came when it became clear to everyone that in order to survive financially, major advertising and marketing would have to be done and that cost a lot of money. Once everyone looked closely at were we could generate that type of money, it became clear that it was already there. Unfortunately that source of money was the vast amount of testing fees collected by the JYMS Federation (again, AKA Master Kim). If he had only sacrificed the testing fees for 3 years to market and advertise he would have regained that money ten fold and JYMS would have exploded.

After a time tensions started to build and frustration mounted. Master Kim was not teaching his instructors but strictly forbid them to train or learn elsewhere. He kept telling us that in order for JYMS to succeed we all had to sacrifice countless time, money and resources, while not showing a willingness to do the same himself. Sooner or later something had to give.

In Early April of this year something did give… Me! My reasons were simple.
1. I believe a leader must practice what he preaches.
2. No man has the God given right to tell me that I am not allowed to learn anything or from anyone. Anyone who truly has your interest in heart would never do such a thing.
3. If you can’t (or won’t) teach the thing I want to learn, then I will find someone who will.
4. If I’m going to give a percentage of my income to someone it sure as hell is not going to be so that person can live selfishly while telling me to live humbly.
5. I was tired of signing up students and feeling like I was lying to them about what they were going to get. JYMS is advertised as a complete martial art. It is anything but. Just ask about their internal training. I was often discouraged by Master Kim from training internally.
6. There are many other reasons but these are their roots. All things stem from these, or a combination of these things.

I am now an independent school owner. I am still teaching the same theories and principles that where taught by JYMS, except rather than using the JYMS forms (actually TKD forms) as a base I am using the Bei Sil Lum (Northern Shaolin) forms created by Ku Yu Cheung as a base.

The quality, moral and spirit of the school have increased substantially. Personally, I prefer the small school, family feel. We are a very tight knit group. We have a lot of plans for the future (immediate and distant) and tons renewed enthusiasm.

Since the time I have left, two more of my brothers (in a personally spiritual sense) have also left JYMS and gone independent. I’m feel more are to follow.
This is my story in a nutshell. Truly I think I could write a rather in depth book on the matter but frankly it would be a waste of my time. If any other major points come to mind I will post follow-ups. Perhaps there are others out there who have experienced JYMS that will share their stories, good or bad.

I still feel as though the instructors of JYMS are my family and wish them nothing but the best. I hope that whichever path they follow is the right one for them. I also will always hold a place in my heart for Master Kim. While I may have many teachers I can only consider him as my martial arts master. He has done more for me as a person then I could ever express. I am truly saddened by the changes that took place over the years. JYMS could have been a wonderful thing.

If you have any further questions please post them and I will answer as frankly and openly as I can.

** This ends the original post.

My Story part 3 (from a former Jungyae instructor) (of 4)

Originally posted on the Dragons Dungeon on 11-03-02
http://anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/361.html




My Story part 3

As time past, many things changed, as is inevitable. Several distinct trends started to take hold.

When a new school opened, the owner had to sign a licensing agreement. This I understand, however the agreement stated several key points. First, it outlined guidelines for students testing. It required that for each test a person pays a certain fee, most of which was to go back to the World Jungyae Moosul Federation (aka. Master Kim) for Federation operations. Part of the operations where to supply the schools with students handbooks, advertisements, forms, etc. Funny how that worked, it was not the Federation supplying the schools, rather when Master Kim needed a new ad he put the various school owners in charge of creating them for everyone else. When it was time for a revised student handbook, as the old one was pretty much a joke, and largely taken from books written by OHTC master song. (Master Song is one of the only other Masters that Master Kim ever spoke VERY highly of. I also feel he is of traditional roots, an excellent master and example. I have nothing but respect for this man. A true scholar.) I found this out when it became my job to revise and re-write the handbook. I spent 2 ½ years and countless hours on the handbook and when it was done I didn’t even get a thank you. You know what I got. I got a “finally”! No compensation for the hundreds of hours taken away from my school. Nothing. Now don’t get me wrong. When it was time for the handbook to be re-done, I volunteered for the project, but a little appreciation would be nice.

This was the overall trend. Master Kim would get an idea and it was up to the instructors to do it. He is a firm believer in not paying for anything, even it if means not having a professional end result.

It is also interesting to know what the testing fees supported, since it was not the organization as a whole. New Mercedes, new house, new mini-van with a DVD player, immaculate wardrobe, and the list goes on.

Somewhere along the line, things got even more interesting. Master Kim, after meeting with some master from Florida (I think it might have even been a CMD master??? Big diamond ring on his finger. I will as a colleague and tell his name when I find out) he decided it would improve the ‘Quality’ if we changed from our current 10 belt system to a 18 belt system. He met with the instructors as a whole and in private to sell the idea. I have to admit I was sold and did my best to convince the other instructor that it was a goods idea. It was my traditional thinking that if you study less at a time you get better at it. But wouldn’t you know, looking back we went to 18 belt, no change in the per test charge (so students paid for an additional 8 tests) and all in all the was no positive change in quality, just the number of people flying through the rank. The belt race was on. Suddenly, unqualified black belt where popping up everywhere. (this is the same time when the BB test went from 12 hours down to ½ hour). Funny though, Master Kim thought this would help JYMS to grow, but once the change took effect the opening of new schools stopped.

More to come...

My Story part 2 (from a former Jungyae instructor) (of 4)

Originally posted on the Dragons Dungeon on 11-03-02
http://anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/361.html




My Story part 2
Once I began training, it took over every aspect of my life. I lived and breathed martial arts. The training offered was incredible. It was not the “fluff” being offered everywhere else. Workouts were intense and the lessons were practical. They also offered wilderness survival training and what was some of the most comprehensive weapons training available. This especially appealed to me because I had always been a weapons nut. I trained whenever I had a free minute. The best part was the theory and principle training. JYMS used to not only focus on movements and techniques, but more importantly the theories and principles that are at the root of all martial arts. (side note: while the roots of all arts are taught, the difference in the application and expression of those root from style to style are not taught. Just knowing the roots is great but not knowing how they relate to the other arts is extremely limiting) I learned how to see and understand the martial arts.
A couple years into my training, Master Kim opened a second location and turned the Kirkland school over to his top instructor, who is still his right hand man. At first I was weary, as I had usually only worked with Master Kim. Things turned out Ok however, and my training continued to follow a very positive path.
Another year went by and I had been training intensely from the beginning. (I had to as nothing seemed to come naturally to me.) I was then approached to join the JYMS instructors program. I was thrilled. Here was my chance to really take things to the next level. I had to take an interview with Master Kim, submit a rather long essay, take a personality test and I’m sure a few more hoops that I cannot remember. After all was said and done, I was officially accepted into the program. I did not have much money so I was told not to worry about payment. (side note: when I eventually opened a school, I received an invoice for all the things I was ever told not to worry about.). Now I was ready to learn how to be an instructor. Train More. Come to more classes. Teach other people while I sit in the office. That was the instructor program. While I did get a lot of experience, I got no instructor specific training. Once and a while, which soon became all too often, we had instructor program meetings where we learned sales techniques and were pumped up and motivated by the dreams of Master Kim. JYMS was going to be the biggest, best and most complete. We were all witnessing the beginning of a modern day martial arts empire.
More to come…

My Story part 1 (from a former Jungyae instructor) (of 4)

Originally posted on the Dragons Dungeon on 11-03-02
http://anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/361.html

My Story part 1
My time is rather scattered so I will share with you my story and answer your questions as I find extra bits of time.
First off, I am still a school owner. In early April of this year I split form the JYMS Federation. There where many reasons for this which you will learn throughout my story. I am still teaching the same theories and principles that where taught by JYMS, except rather than using the JYMS forms (actually TKD forms) as a base I am using the Bei Sil Lum (Northern Shaolin) forms created by Ku Yu Cheung as a base.
From a distance, and maybe even up close, JYMS does appear a bit like OYD. I have never trained OYD so I cannot offer a true comparison.
As far as not giving prices over the phone and requiring an interview, it is simply a sales technique. Once you have someone in the door, you can usually get them to join. While sales are not a part of the traditional martial arts, they are a necessary evil of a commercial school. I personally do not use this approach. I feel that if you cannot captivate someone, be it by phone or e-mail, you are not strong in what you have to offer.
As to why I left and whether or not I think JYMS is a valid art, let me share my story...
In 1990 I began my search for a martial arts school. I had read many books and studied the history of the arts for quite some time but had no actual training. I want to move from enthusiast to practitioner. I followed a basic tenant that I had read in several books. It is better to spend three year searching for a true master than training for 10 years with a fake one.
I originally wanted to train Kung Fu, however the only school within a reasonable distance was Temple Kung Fu, and just by listening to what they had to say I knew that would be a waste of time, energy and money. Even to someone who had never trained before they where obviously a scam.
By 1993 I had narrowed my search for a style and teacher to JYMS and an OYD school in Bellevue. After observing several classes and asking endless questions (which obviously was driving the instructors nuts) I chose JYMS. My reasons for choosing JYMS where several.
At the time OYD had lots of schools and JYMS was only one school taught by Master Kim, Won Kuk himself. Also, and not to bash or talk badly (as that will never be my intent throughout my story) the level of teachings was much higher. There was a much greater focus on the theories and principles, the lessons seemed much more balanced and well rounded and the skill level of the senior students at JYMS was far beyond that of the OYD seniors. The overall feel of JYMS was much more real, for lack of a better word.
More to come...

Why we are here...

The first thing to remember about this blog is that it is not here to bash. It is here to provide a counter voice to that of Won Kuk Kim. For those that train under him you need to be aware of who he is and what he does. From there, you can make your own opinion. You are free to post your own comments both positive and negative, but please remember to do so in an intelligent manner. Trolling from either side of the fence will not be allowed. All constructive dialogs are welcome. The first posts are going to be re-posts from other source that have been collected from across the web. In each case we have tried to site the original source of the post. Please check out those posts for any other comments that may appear in conjunction with them, because we have edited them down to just their base information.

At this time everyone must also be aware that there are 2 organizations using the Jungyae name. The first is Won Kuk Kim’s organization the World Jungyae Moosul Federation. It is only this organization, or any under Won Kuk Kim, that we are discussing here. If there is any confusion in this matter please let us know.